Triggered elsewhere in the forum about this type of device, I'd like to invite peoples views and insights on the subject.

Here is the product's homepage -

Only registered users can see links on this forum! Register or Login on forum!

It should be made clear that the discussion is aimed at the type of device, not this particular product.

Is there a difference between the electric fence collar and the electric barking collar? Because I have only ever read the hype about the barking one.
Some of these collars have a switch to turn it up and it can go up quite high.
I used to feel it was a lazy mans way out.
But now that I have a dog that barks constantly when I am out and nothing I do stops her and the neighbours complain constantly and would prob have had the council around about the noise if I wasn't moving house this spring anyway I feel more sympathetic towards people who use them as a last resort, before they loose their barking dog to the council. If they were not illegal I may have considered getting one myself, either that or paying for Cesar Millan to fly over here and fix her for me.

My view on any 'zapper' based devices used in controlling dogs is this - they replace a kick-in-the-ribs...

Don't get me wrong, since Sampo acquired his gonads, he has tested my pack-rank to the stage where I have indeed stuck one on him.

Thanks to Acme Size-8, the word 'No' is now deeply linked with a physical reminder of who runs the show. Cruel? I don't think so, because since the lesson was learned, the active measure has not been necessary and a verbal command is 100% effective. It's a guy-thing.

Back to the zapper stuff... If the conditioning inflicted by these devices was effective, should a dogs wear them continuously? Are they adressing the cause of the behaviour; barking, wandering, chasing police-horses, etc. I see a huge difference between a training-measure and a persistant punishment with no paedagogic goal.

I hesitate to call users of zapper-tech lazy or cruel, but would ask if they have exhausted the therapies and strategies aimed at mitigating the emotional/social issues that cause the dog's unwanted behaviour. If Cesare M himself has seen need to resort to them, I'm pretty certain it is when all other options are no-goes.

There are alternatives that do not harm the dog in any way - except to affright him a little.

Personally I tried a "spray collar" because a dog trainer once gave me the advice to do so with my exceptionally stubborn labrador retriever girl.

Only registered users can see links on this forum! Register or Login on forum!

.

But my dog did not care about anymore after the first shock

I dont really understand the need for the electric fence type one unless you have lots of outdoor space.

I believe the Kennel Club are trying to have the shock collars banned as they have caused some serious electrical burns and I think Defra may be looking into them also. (Sorry, I have just read back a bit and see Jennie says they are illegal, things have obviously moved on since I read up on them). I did see Cesar using one when they were trying to teach their dogs to avoid snakes but they had an expert in using them working with them at the time. Rationale being that it was better than being fatally bitten by the snake.

Another of my favourite programmes, Dog Borstal, use the citronella spray ones. They seem to work quite well on the programme.

If I was ever to use any such device I think it would have to be the spray one. Although I have to admit to being tempted by a cattle prod when he's out and goes off into la la land - (LOL).

I have read up on them a lot over the years and have been informed that when activated for whatever reason one would activate them which causes a shock of somekind to the dog, it is not necessarily the thing that you want to stop that dog associates with the shock. It could be something else nearby that you have failed to notice and from then on dog associates shock to 'that thing' you failed to notice. Trying hard to explain this. I know what I mean but hard to put across to you guys. Dog then has a hang up on this 'other' thing as the cause of the shock and then you have more probs. This has happened time and time again so shock collars should NOT be used by anyone other than totally experienced person/trainer/behaviourist and then only as last resort.

I am TOTALLY against any form of physical punishment for the dog such as kicking. There is absolutely no need for that at all. I do speak from experience as have been training dogs successfully for over 30 yrs to top levels of competition.

I did read once about a qualified behaviouralist he used iton a dog to stop it from chasing sheep. when he went near the sheep he got a shock on his collar.
Ever since that the dog was too afraid to go into fields.
So doesn't always work the way you want it to.

For the most part, I'm against electronic 'Invisible Fence' & Non-human Conditioning Devices because they can be too easily abused or technical problems / faulty devices can lead to horrible, agonizing experiences.

Also, as Lynn pointed out, there is potential to associate the "punishment" with a completely alien occurrence that can cause major issues in the future once the associated behavior becomes ingrained. For instance, my friend in Croatia has a male golden retriever that she trained using a similar electronic collar and every time he would act aggressively towards other dogs (when they went on a walk) he would get a zap. The problem is that he didn't associate the zap with his aggressive behavior but instead associated the punishment with the presence of other dogs and now he's more aggressive than ever towards other dogs because he thinks that they are to blame for his pain. If anything the electric collar just (unintentionally) reinforced the negative behavior!

I think that if used by experienced professionals as a last resort these devices can be a useful tool (in combination with proper corrective training) but that's about as far as the extent should go. As far as invisible fences, I guess the device has its uses but I, personally, much prefer a physical barrier to a "mental" one. Either way, I would hate to see these devices in the control of someone incompetent or inclined to cause harm.

Blustag wrote:

I am TOTALLY against any form of physical punishment for the dog such as kicking. There is absolutely no need for that at all. I do speak from experience as have been training dogs successfully for over 30 yrs to top levels of competition.

I agree! There are other, much more effective methods than resorting to physical violence. For instance, I find positive reinforcement is by far the best method to reward good behavior because then the dog is more than happy to comply. It doesn't always have to be a food treat, sometimes just a vocal compliment or favorite toy works just as well.

By being firm and confident you can overcome most "bad habits" and instill discipline / dominance. For example, proper walking on the leash (dog at heel or behind, not pulling) and leaving the house first (with the dog following) serve to reinforce the proper hierarchy and keep you in the Alpha position. By starting out with proper training from a young age most of the problems that usually occur in later life, without any discipline training, can be avoided.

If there are any "mistakes" or bad behavior, one of the best techniques is to either just ignore the "mistake" (minor) or completely ignore the dog for a more serious issue.

My mom had a dog once that completely ignored the shock of the ivisible fence... apparently the fun of being out of the yard was worth the pain of getting out. He got out every day and there are leash laws where she lives, so she eventually found another home for him, on a big 100 acre farm where he never runs away now.

My mom now has a black lab who is absolutely terrified of the fence, to the point that they can't even get him to cross in the "gate" (a designated area they're supposed to associate with being able to leave through when the collar is off). They have to drive the car into the yard and put him in the car before they can take him to the vet. He won't come within 10 feet of the fence, even when it's not on. I don't know that he's ever been shocked, but he hates the noise enough to stay away from it.

I personally don't like invisible fences... I hate even being shocked by my car in the cold weather, even the anticipation of getting shocked, so I couldn't do it to my pet. At the same time, though, I understand that for some there is no other option, and it is better than dogs roaming free around neighborhoods or into busy streets.

The concept of invisible fence is no different than an electrical fence used to contain livestock. Once they test it the first time they normally won't press the issue again. I normally just have to remind Juneau to "watch the fence" and he backs off. I much rather him have a quick, minor static shock than run out into the road and get hit by a car. We are having a standard fence built for him, yet I will continue to have him wear the collar just in case he puts his escape artist skills into place. Currently it is for his own physical protection and mental well being as he has the freedom to romp, run, play, roll around and have fun off leash. Other than his genetic health issues, he is a happy go lucky, friend to all dogs and human kind canine without a care in the world...

but that's just one opinion.

It's absolutely much safer and for a dog's benefit to have an invisible fence than to roam into a road and be injured or killed, and it's a by far better life than to be bound by a 6 ft. chain to a tree or doghouse. I think you're right that most dogs won't press the issue after getting an initial shock, and even my mom's lab is a happy dog, just absolutely terrified of going anywhere near the fence.

She has had the police show up at her house because there have been complaints of a lab roaming the neighborhood, and they assumed it was hers. All she had to do was show them just how unwilling he was to leave the yard. Do you have any problems with people not knowing you have the fence, or do you have it posted? It was an initial issue with my mom and the county leash laws.

No issues with others as of yet and because we are always outside with him. They just think he is a well behaved, well trained dog, and in a way they are correct... he minds his fence. Children ride by on bikes, cars roll by, others with dogs walk by and he stays just behind the fence prior to audible. We walked him all the time as a puppy as to make everyone aware that he was a dog and not a wolf. Even the trick or theaters recognized him at the door this past October. I am very pleased that he minds it with cars, as he needs Cesar's help with that subject... try's to chase and eat them on our walks. I think he thinks he is protecting me from them... silly dog.

Juneau is not terrified of the fence at all. We go for walks all the time. Always through the same spot of the fence... down the driveway. He goes willingly and with much enthusiasm every time.

My brother has a jack russell terrier(hyper, bouncy dog)... she is on the fence and never challenges it... not even for a squirrel. They even have stations inside their house to limit what rooms she can enter. She can enter/leave the house through doggie doors any time she likes. Another happy, well balanced canine.

But I do understand that every dog as every human is different.

Are you not worried that he could be stolen?

When they cross the "fence" is it just one initial shock or is it a series of shocks until the dog goes back within the "safe" boundary?

It's one shock which, in the case of my mom's previous dog, was worth it to run out of the yard. You can change the setting on my mom's system at least to make it more or less sensitive, which increases or decreases the distance to the actual "fence" before the noise starts, but I don't know if it increases the intensity of the shock. You create a "gate" for the dog during training so it knows when it's not wearing the collar, it can exit the yard through one designated spot.

Only shocks when/if crossed that's why is audibles first. If he hears the audible he knows to back off. My fencs will not continue to shock if they get through.

Theft is always a concern as with everything and we can only do so much to prevent it. He is microchipped, and I was also thinking about a gps location device that he could wear. I saw a device on one news show that will actually call you if your dog leaves the perimiter of your house to let you know where they are.

We are home with him anytime he is permitted to be out, but my neighbors leave their dogs fenced in all day with no issues. We have lived in this neighborhood for five years, and them much longer.